A juxtaposition of quotations, stemming from a train of thought from yesterday (Bold emphasis in the quotation below is mine).
"Even when the effect of some gene is indubitable, the sheer complexity of the self will mean that it will not serve as an oracle on what the person will do. The gene that lets me taste propylthiouracil ... might make me dislike tonic water, coffee and dark beer. Unlike the tenuous genes linked to personality or intelligence, this one codes for a single taste-bud receptor, and I don’t doubt that it lets me taste the bitterness. So why hasn’t it stopped me from enjoying those drinks? Presumably it’s because adults get a sophisticated pleasure from administering controlled doses of aversive stimuli to themselves. I’ve acquired a taste for Beck’s Dark; others enjoy saunas, rock-climbing, thrillers or dissonant music. Similarly, why don’t I conform to type and exploit those fast-twitch muscle fibers (thanks, ACTN3 genes!) in squash or basketball, rather than wasting them on hiking? A lack of coordination, a love of the outdoors, an inclination to daydream, all of the above? The self is a byzantine bureaucracy, and no gene can push the buttons of behavior by itself. You can attribute the ability to defy our genotypes to free will, whatever that means, but you can also attribute it to the fact that in a hundred-trillion-synapse human brain, any single influence can be outweighed by the product of all of the others." --Steven Pinker in the New York Times, found via The Useless Tree.
And on knowing each other, the "Grizzled-but-still-incorrigible-scribe-himself!" says it so well. From the comments on yesterday's post:
"Even when the effect of some gene is indubitable, the sheer complexity of the self will mean that it will not serve as an oracle on what the person will do. The gene that lets me taste propylthiouracil ... might make me dislike tonic water, coffee and dark beer. Unlike the tenuous genes linked to personality or intelligence, this one codes for a single taste-bud receptor, and I don’t doubt that it lets me taste the bitterness. So why hasn’t it stopped me from enjoying those drinks? Presumably it’s because adults get a sophisticated pleasure from administering controlled doses of aversive stimuli to themselves. I’ve acquired a taste for Beck’s Dark; others enjoy saunas, rock-climbing, thrillers or dissonant music. Similarly, why don’t I conform to type and exploit those fast-twitch muscle fibers (thanks, ACTN3 genes!) in squash or basketball, rather than wasting them on hiking? A lack of coordination, a love of the outdoors, an inclination to daydream, all of the above? The self is a byzantine bureaucracy, and no gene can push the buttons of behavior by itself. You can attribute the ability to defy our genotypes to free will, whatever that means, but you can also attribute it to the fact that in a hundred-trillion-synapse human brain, any single influence can be outweighed by the product of all of the others." --Steven Pinker in the New York Times, found via The Useless Tree.
And on knowing each other, the "Grizzled-but-still-incorrigible-scribe-himself!" says it so well. From the comments on yesterday's post:
"I don't honestly think anyone ever truly knows another person. Maybe we don't ever know ourselves, either. It doesn't matter how much you love someone, or respect them, or how hard you try and share your world—yourself—with them. It just isn't possible. We all play off one another. That is sometimes apparent here in the blog world. And it's not that we're even being false (although some doubtless are) so much as we tend to present that part and side of us that we think others expect or want. We do that with everyone in our life, every day.
Intimacy in the sexual sense often tells us little about each other—or only within a limited range. Intimacy in the broader sense—friendships that last and perhaps grow over decades, including that between husband and wife, significant others, whatever applies—come closer, but still miss or misinterpret as much as they comprehend. Two soldiers, faced daily with the raw bloody edge of war—firefights, sudden death, and horrors unimaginable—learn things about one and other no one in civilian life can ever know and understand.
...No blog will ever replace the act of sharing the same space—cafe table, church pew, bed, living room, campfire on a northcountry beach—but it provides a forum in which we can, to a certain degree, begin."
And also from yesterdays comment thread, the illustrious K. from Calgary quotes to us from Dickens Tale of Two Cities. In my view, Dickens nails it here:
"A wonderful fact to reflect upon, that every human creature is constituted to be that profound secret and mystery to every other. A solemn consideration, when I enter a great city by night, that every one of those darkly clustered houses encloses its own secret; that every room in every one of them encloses its own secret; that every beating heart in the hundreds of thousands of breasts there, is, in some of its imaginings, a secret to the heart nearest it!"
From Whiskey River:
"Even when the poet seems most himself, he is never the bundle of accident and incoherence that sits down to breakfast; he has been reborn as an idea, something intended, complete." ~William Butler Yeats
Does Yeats therefore pose the idea of "situational self"? The "who" we are reactive to the when and where?
ReplyDeleteWhich, I guess, is at least in part the way I believe…though the greater question might then be are all those "selves" a part of us always—some recessive, some active, others to be called to the forefront intentionally or unintentionally, consciously or unconsciously, as dictated by the moment?
Is all this a part of the muddle among id, ego, and super-ego—or deeper?
What about a spiritual component?
Yeats may not have had the entire answer, but he probably understood the complexity of the question, and addressed it with wonderful sanity. "I don't know," "I don't understand," and "I can't explain," are phrases of great freedom. Occasionally, the best we can offer.
Grizzled,
ReplyDeleteI don't know if the idea of the "situational self" is what Yeats is posing. I just liked the quote because it seemed to ring true to the difference (whether intentional or not) between the persons we see here on blogs, and the "bundle of accident and incoherence that sits down to breakfast." (or, to reference yesterday's post, even the lunatic we keep chained in the attic).
I am not sure how to respond to the rest of you comment either, not because it's not a good one, but because...I just don't know. :)
That's the best I can offer. :)
I might add though, just to throw this in there for the sake of more pondering, that from a Buddhist perspective, there is no separate self....
All of this is much to get the head around. Which is why I posted all of these quotations as evidence to the mystery that is us humans....
Peace
Nice Post, FW. I have to say, with all due respect to "The Grizzled-But-Still-Incorrigible...", that I do not agree that it is impossible to know another deeply. If two people are willing and ready to do their work together, I believe it is entirely possible and beautiful. Sure, the ego stands up and gets in the way of truth alot. But I do not believe it is impossible. The work I do with my husband leaves me humble and speechless at times (when i am not reacting to him in a totally egoic way :)
ReplyDeleteForest…
ReplyDeleteYou know, I think I can agree with that Buddhist perspective of "no separate self." Not sure if that necessarily excludes "situational self" though—the idea of being, revealing, responding with various portions and combinations of "self" as the situation invokes.
And if I gave the idea that I don't believe two people can come to know each other deeply, it wasn't what I meant. I believe in that fact emphatically. I'm just not sure any of ever know all the dark (and bright) corners of our own hearts unless they're brought out—by life, circumstance, love.
I did like the Yeats quote, BTW. In fact, have already copied into my personal quote collection notebook.
Personally, the longer I live, the less about some of the ideas posed here I get figured out—which is a way of saying I'm either getting dumber as I go along, or better at understanding the complexity of the questions. I do know enough to be scared witless by the person who claims to have it all figured out… :-)
Once again this is a good discussion here and my tendency is to not say too much but to sit back and let it happen.
ReplyDeleteThank you Grizzled and Molly for engaging the topic here.
"...the longer I live, the less about some of the ideas posed here I get figured out.... I do know enough to be scared witless by the person who claims to have it all figured out… :-)"
I'm going to totally agree with that and say that it rings completely true to my own experience.
To be known by another person totally, one would have to be aware of all of the complexities of oneself. For me, I could make no claim on that score. Only God knows me that well and, happily, I trust him/her to deal with the input lovingly.
ReplyDeleteAs a goal, it seems admirable and even wise. In reality, it would involve constant transparency and ongoing revelation.
I have never had that kind of experience nor do I foresee it in my future. The availability of circumstance would be nil. Pity.
Shucks, I'll open my "problem gate" on the subject of "truly knowing another person."
ReplyDeleteI'm inclined to agree with Ole Grizzled that we can't really, truly know the depths of another person.
But I do believe (and sometimes know) that we can plumb the depths of our own person.
All we have to do is (1) look into ourselves without flinching and (2) reveal ourselves to the world with responsibility.
Of course, it's not easy to look into ourselves; hence, someone invented meditation practice.
And, of course, it's not easy to reveal ourselves (particularly our dark side) to the world in a responsible way. But when we do, the world will respond (respond <--> responsibility) and tell us whether we're honest and responsible. So we have to be willing to listen to what the world tells us.
Look...it's hard and uncomfortable and crazy-making, this inner work. Not many people choose to do it. Most of the time, I don't choose to do it. I have to get backed into a corner before I take it seriously.
But life continuously backs us into corners. So what are we going to do?
Barbara,
ReplyDeleteThank you. Wow, I really have to think about that. I'm not sure what I think about it right now, but I will be thinking about it (aside from the "God knowing me" part. I don't spend any time on the question of God anymore.)
Barry,
ReplyDeleteI don't know what we are going to do, but I (self, ego there....) intend to do the hard inner work.
Back to the cushion.
Thank you for posting these thoughts. Once again, you both deepen the discussion here and make me go think...maybe I'll go drink tea too. ;)
I think I will just smile and drink tea right now :)
ReplyDeleteGreat comments, everyone. And FW, thanks for getting us going...
Agreed, Molly!
ReplyDeleteWell... I'm past tea time, so I will just smile, have a glass of wine, and revel in my gratitude to be in the presence of you all.
: )
We can't know another person totally as we look at them through our own lenses coloured by our beliefs and other vagaries of nature...we form schemas of our world and others. Just like we all see something different when we attempt to understand a work of art or natural entity.
ReplyDeleteThe choice though to try and understand another person is just a way of trying to understand humanity and its mysteries. There will always be a mystery there!!
Looking deeply within ourselves and attempting to be "authentic" is probably just as challenging and unfortunately there are few people that choose that dangerous path. (Thoreau is one who did it)...thanks again FW for another thought-provoking post.
Great comment anonymous, thanks. Next time, would you mind at least leaving your name too? Thanks. :)
ReplyDeleteOops, I've just come back because I remembered I didn't leave my name (totally accidental). I got lost in my own thoughts from your post :)
ReplyDeleteBella
Australia
Thanks Bella, I wondered if it was you. :)
ReplyDelete